?

Log in

No account? Create an account

Previous Entry | Next Entry

Meta on Kate and Sawyer

Late addition for the Lost Riffs prompt: Meta. I am notoriously longwinded; consider yourself warned! Or you could just read the last paragraph.


Does Sawyer still have a death wish?

When Sawyer faced down that polar bear in the pilot, it seemed more like him being a badass rather than some kind of death wish. It wasn't until "Confidence Man" that we learned that he had so much self-loathing that he was willing to be tortured and possibly killed for something he didn't do. And then in "Outlaws" we found out that in trying to complete his lifelong quest for revenge, he'd murdered the wrong man. That, more than his realization that he'd become the man he blamed for ruining his life, was why he seemed to actively be courting death. And when he's bleeding out after Sayid stabs him, he tries to goad Jack into just letting him die. In retrospect, his trying to put the marshall out of his misery involved not only mercy and compassion but I think a good deal of projection.

If Sawyer no longer wants to die, at what point did that change? I think that scene in "Solitary," where Kate and even Jack -- who had earlier told him no one cared and refused to keep changing his bandage -- welcome him with smiles, is a turning point. Over the course of his time on the island, Sawyer faces death several times, but it's under different circumstances. He takes a bullet to protect Walt. Even though he's been shot, he saves Michael from drowning. And when they're all captured by the Tailies, he refuses to cooperate because he thinks his friends are in danger. Somewhere along the line, he stopped being about every man for himself, and started putting his friends first, even when it turns out they don't put him first and don't even consider him a friend. Which is the most frustrating thing: no one else can see that Sawyer has changed.

Sawyer readily volunteers for any risky mission, partly because I think he hates being left out and he's desperately seeking Jack's approval. (C'mon, that's totally canon!) It could be argued that he considers himself dispensable and that's why he's so eager to saddle up for each showdown.

By the time he gets captured, Sawyer appears to just be looking out for number one again, telling Kate that Jack might be dead for all they know. He does not try to rescue Jack but -- he also makes no effort to rescue himself or Kate. He's been robbed of hope and at that point, I think his only thought is to just face death like a man. He tells Kate that Jack is making the right decision in not doing the surgery. He doesn't expect Jack to do anything to save him. I like to think that, at that point, Jack and Sawyer were both convinced that The Others were likely going to kill them anyway and that refusing to cooperate was the only way to go out with dignity. But Sawyer's determined to not deliberately put Kate in harm's way, which escaping surely would. He doesn't run and when Pickett is about to kill him, he doesn't fight. Jack making that deal saves Sawyer's life. But I like to think that it's partly the knowledge that Jack is cooperating rather than see him killed that finally spurs Sawyer to act, that and making sure Kate is safe. And that's why he won't let her go back for Jack immediately.

Does he really not care about Jack? I'd say his being so choked-up when admitting to Hurley that they had to leave Jack behind is proof he does care. And I do think he still regards Jack as his best friend on the island, even if that's never going to be reciprocated. Which is a sad recurring motif for Sawyer: Every time he does something unselfish, he's rebuffed. No wonder the guy wants to give up.

I think whether Sawyer wants to live or die depends on how accepted he feels by his fellow survivors. It's not just whether Kate loves him or Jack thinks of him as a friend, but that Claire trusts him with Aaron and Hurley stops by to hang out. Hurley seems to be the only one who can see through his jerky act to see that he's really just lonely. It does bother me that Sawyer is denied the chance to even choose whether he'll go on the mission to save Jack. For now it's just lovelorn, lonely, selfish Sawyer and that feels like a step backward for the show. But Sawyer put himself out there for Kate and since she made it clear she doesn't care, it does make a kind of sense that he'd retreat. So I guess he's always been a "one step forward, two steps back" kind of guy.

It's been suggested many times that Sawyer's ultimate fate is to sacfice himself to save someone else, that that is his redemption arc. Sawyer's self-esteem has never been very solid but (*tears up as I type this*) that is the one thing he could do for someone else, is to die for them. I don't know that's how it's going to go but I wouldn't be surprised, either. So, I think that, much like Jack Bauer, Sawyer never sets a high value on his life and that at any moment, it could be forfeit. And that he would be okay with that. I get the idea that Sawyer feels like he's been living on borrowed time since his father surely would have killed him if he'd found him under the bed that night.


This one's much shorter!


And I typed up a long meta about Kate's loyalty (or lack of it). But it boils down to the fact that, no matter how doggedly determined she is now in getting Jack back, she hasn't always taken his side. Even more than Sawyer, I think she's about "every woman for herself," all her attempts to reinvent herself as the island go-to girl aside. From manipulating Jack and Sawyer to get to her case, to poisoning Michael to get his spot on the raft to siding with Locke over Jack in opening the hatch, she routinely sabotages her friendships to get what she wants. Her current brushoff of Sawyer is just the latest trend in her switching loyalties. I don't see that loyalty to Jack and Sawyer needs to be mutually exclusive. At the end of the day, I think Kate is ultimately out for Kate. And the idea that only *she* can save Jack (like in the cave-in) is just the worst kind of Mary Sueing.

A lot of this is bad writing, to be sure, especially in the interest of keeping the triangle fluid and never settling on one definite pairing. But Kate is definitely the one who comes off the worst. It's not just romantic fickleness. It's her inabilty to be there for someone else.

And where might that come from? Her mother lied to her about who her real father was, and when she realized that her real father was an abusive scumbag, she snapped. Despite Kate's canon denial, I do believe she was molested by her father, otherwise her actions are just too extreme. Her attempt to save her mother backfired horribly and her mother ended up despising her. The woman definitely has trust issues. And then again, every time she gets close to someone (like Tom) they end up dead. So, yeah, she has all kinds of intimacy issues and she's had to learn to be cold and manipulate people to survive. I guess that's why I can't just take her fluctuating devotion to Jack or Sawyer as true love because she is so opportunistic. I ask myself if she would die for either of them and you know, I can't answer that, whereas I am positive either of them would die for her, or each other.

ETA: True, she didn't leave Sawyer when he told her to run and she refused to leave Jack behind. When anyone is hurt or in trouble, I think you can count on her. (Unless you spook her and remind her of her father.) So she's good in a crisis. But the rest of the time? Not so much.

And yet she's still the female I like best on the island! The others seem reduced to just being mommies, or they have to carry this whole character load of being leaders that comes off really forced. Maybe because Kate was there at the very beginning, I've just been imprinted and I can't ever give up on her entirely.

Tags:

Comments

( 25 comments — Leave a comment )
eponine119
Mar. 18th, 2007 02:31 am (UTC)
his trying to put the marshall out of his misery involved not only mercy and compassion but I think a good deal of projection.

Whoa. Never thought of that before.

I ultimately come to a different conclusion about Sawyer. I was just saying it to someone a few days ago -- the notion that Sawyer will die for someone else hurts me to even think about, because it means that he's right about himself, that he is worth less.

Reading what you wrote about Kate directly following what you wrote about Sawyer made me wonder if she's the island go-to girl for many of the reasons Sawyer joins the dangerous missions -- she doesn't want to be left out and she wants to feel like she belongs and is worth something.

Not to argue all over you! This was very well done and I admire you for taking on the meta prompt at all.
halfdutch
Mar. 18th, 2007 02:38 am (UTC)
I guess it comes down to Sawyer needing people more than lets on and Kate needing them less than *she* lets on. Or something. LOL. Even though I rambled on so much about Sawyer, I did kind of oversimplify there. I don't think he exists just to sacrifice himself and I don't think he's that sensitive to what other people think of him, in a way. But his socialization seems to be the path to his redemption. Whether that involves him dying or not, I don't know. I certainly hope not but I wouldn't rule it out, alas. Josh himself has said as much. But gah, it kills me to even read (or write) Sawyer dying in a fic!

And I guess maybe Kate has something to prove to, maybe more to herself than anyone else. I probably shortchanged her a bit too, but I just can't buy into her "noble" love for Jack, not if we buy into everything else we've seen about her. I think being on the island has made Sawyer and Kate accountable in a lot of ways they never were before, being on the run and answerable to no one. And I can buy Kate being inconsistent since she's had so many different personas.

Thanks for reading all that!

foxxcub
Mar. 18th, 2007 03:13 am (UTC)
It's not just romantic fickleness. It's her inabilty to be there for someone else.

Ugh, you just made my hate intensify, LOL. But I agree with everything you said about Sawyer!
halfdutch
Mar. 18th, 2007 03:23 am (UTC)
Oops, heh! Well, I come close to hating her at times. But like I said, if I end up hating her, there's no one left to like! But she's often better apart from any romantic storylines. I think that's why people are jumping on the Kate/Sayid ship since that's not one the writers are forcing at us.
deej240z
Mar. 18th, 2007 03:16 am (UTC)
I think it's really hard to tell if Sawyer still has a death wish. He really doesn't get much to do, and when he does it's always reactionary to others stories. But I think having low self-esteem problems lends itself to the greater chance of suicide or suicide by placeing oneself in harms way. He just doesn't care one way or the other. I think it's totally at the whim of the writers, though. Continuity thy name is not Lost.

He does not try to rescue Jack but -- he also makes no effort to rescue himself or Kate.

I think he did have some sort of plan in mind. That was what the kiss and beatdown was for in Glass Ballerina(?). Remember when he told Kate what he learned of the others fighting abilities? But any further movement to complete his plans was cut short with the fake pacemaker of doom con. So, I don't think you can absolutely say he didn't make an effort.

As far as Jack goes, I think Sawyer is a strong realist. What was he going to be able to do to help anyone in his current situation of captivity? I think if he were able to have escaped early on, he would have figured out a way to go back for Jack. But! The writers didn't want Sawyer to be pro-active. They never do. He's only good for kicking back on the beach reading a book or taking his shirt off. That's why I think they nixed him from Kate's little adventure to go back. It's unfortunate that what a character would naturally be inclined to do based on their character's history gets squelched to further a plot for another character.

halfdutch
Mar. 18th, 2007 03:33 am (UTC)
Aha, I forgot about his plan to size them all up. He was making plans at first, you're so right. And he ran like crazy when Karl got him out of his cell. But once the con was on (*rolls eyes*) he just gave up. I was trying to follow a throughline despite a severe lack of continuity.

And I'm so with you on them shortchanging Sawyer. But they do it to all the characters, like Jack's tattoo being about him being a "leader." Bleah. If I could offer them one piece of advice, apart from focusing on the original characters and not adding any more new ones, it would be to maintain character integrity and serve the characters first. Great characters is what makes great TV, not great plots. We've all weathered bad episodes of The X-Files or Buffy or SPN or whatever because we are in it for the characters. When you start sacrificing character continuity to some gimmicky plot, then you've sunk your own ship.

And as for Sawyer not getting a chance to rescue Jack or even make a choice there, I feel ripped off. He obviously does care about what happens to Jack. While I enjoyed the van joyride as much as everyone else, reducing Sawyer to lovelorn Romeo and comic relief sucks. I think they wanted to hammer the final nail in the Skate coffin there by splitting them up. We all know that Sawyer's more compassionate and capable and complex than they'll let him be.

It does really bother me that only Kate can go rescue Jack. It's been so long in between Locke delivering the "we're going to get them back" speech and them actually going, I can't recall why they didn't just go get them already. Not going to Kate and Jack and Sawyer's rescue was just as lame as them not doing anything about Claire being missing. If they really had a pirate's code of not going after their own, that's one thing, but giving it lipservice and doing nothing makes them all loo even worse. Eh. It's one more example of characters not acting like real people would.
deej240z
Mar. 18th, 2007 04:42 am (UTC)
Aha, I forgot about his plan to size them all up. He was making plans at first, you're so right. And he ran like crazy when Karl got him out of his cell. But once the con was on (*rolls eyes*) he just gave up. I was trying to follow a throughline despite a severe lack of continuity.

And the reason he gave up was because of Kate. :)

When you start sacrificing character continuity to some gimmicky plot, then you've sunk your own ship.

I can't remember if they were doing that in S1 but it definitely started in S2 and continues to today. Only more glaring and more often. *sigh* I think that's one of the big reasons so many people have stopped watching. People can't following the characters anymore. They're all over the map depending on the plot of the week.

reducing Sawyer to lovelorn Romeo and comic relief sucks.

It always had. Grrrr.

but giving it lipservice and doing nothing makes them all loo even worse. Eh. It's one more example of characters not acting like real people would

Yup. And Sawyer even found a fucking map, for christ's sake! Why did they even introduce that plot point in the first place. Oh yeah, it will be addressed in... Season 4!!!! When *someone else* will put it to use. Not Sawyer. Mark my words. :[
halfdutch
Mar. 18th, 2007 05:09 am (UTC)
Map? The one Sayid is using to guide them to Otherville? I confess, my attention isn't quite as honed in as it used to be, heh. Or is there another map? There was Danielle's map and Locke's black-light map ... they seem pretty well covered when you think about it. The island is not only not deserted, it's far from uncharted.

I was trying to explain to someone who's given up on Lost the difference between liking a character and disliking what the show does with them. It's sad when viewers have a better idea about characters than the show's own writers do.
deej240z
Mar. 18th, 2007 01:09 pm (UTC)
Hee. The road map (bluprints) Sawyer found in the magical mystery tour bus in Hurley's episode.
http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-1258-452.html
Looks like it leads rights to Dharma Central. Nobody gave it a second thought. *sigh*
halfdutch
Mar. 18th, 2007 05:42 pm (UTC)
Ha! I totally forgot about that. And you're right, I'm sure Sawyer won't get a chance to do anything about it. You'd think they'd have him at least barter it ... but all the interested parties are away.

You know (completely OT) it would have been interesting to have some sort of medical crisis on the beach without Jack being there and seeing how they'd cope without him. But the beach is the designated comedy relief zone. :-/

Anyway, with all those maps ... yeah, it's one of those things that the more you add it up in your head, the less sense it all makes. I just wish there never had been any Others. Unless they turned out to be Sleestaks or something. :)

deej240z
Mar. 18th, 2007 06:45 pm (UTC)
it would have been interesting to have some sort of medical crisis on the beach without Jack being there and seeing how they'd cope without him.

Desmondo has medical training. ;)

Sleestaks!!! Lol! I use to watch that Saturday mornings. I'm sure they'll figure out a way to add more other others. Then we won't have to worry about the old others. Just the new others. Then there will be other others others...
halfdutch
Mar. 18th, 2007 08:19 pm (UTC)
Desmond has medical training? Oh, because he gave Claire CPR? I don't think he could do surgery or anything, though.

And hee, yes, why NOT turn to cheesy kids' shows? LOL. It would make about as much sense! And it was called Land of the Lost, after all!
kools_pad
Mar. 18th, 2007 06:09 am (UTC)
Wow. You put alot of thought into those three characters, lol.

I actually wonder if thats the reason so many women are infatuated with Jack and Sawyers friendship(besides the fact that they are just fangirls over them). Because at least their friendship, even though its been weird, holds some validity. The romantic triangle doesn't. Well, not anymore. It used to. But just like i saw Sawyer becoming a lame ass character once he started a romance a mile away, Kate's feelings also became void. A character in the center of love triangle that long, is doomed to be a character void of any real feelings.

In my opinion, Jack is still cool. Sawyer, through the grace of Josh Holloways acting, will be able to return to the evil mastermind Sawyer one day again. And Kate? Well i never liked her to begin with. Even though shes hot and has the bad ass appeal, shes also very juvenile and can't think through anything. And those characters are always annoying.

I actually saw the latest episode. It was good. But i think it was a fluke lol.
halfdutch
Mar. 18th, 2007 05:48 pm (UTC)
Ha, welcome to my LJ! :) It's full of deep (and not so deep) thoughts about Lost. It is sad when viewers spend more time thinking about these characters than the writers do. Jack and Sawyer's friendship/rivalry is absolutely one of the most interesting things about the show and splitting them up so often is not a great idea. Kate is definitely the least interesting part of the triangle, which is why so many of us have made that leap to slashing Jack and Sawyer. Who needs Kate?

I've never seen Sawyer as an evil mastermind! A badass, sure. But the way they write him: He's capable of pulling off long cons on and off the island but then he's too stupid to realize that Ana took his gun, which was tucked into his jeans! (never seen that episode, never gonna) and he gets his ass whupped playing cards and ping pong. And he falls for the fake pacemaker con. So, yeah, a whole lot of inconsistency. Still, even when he gets lame storylines, I love the guy, mostly because Josh can do wonders with even bad dialogue.

The more time Jack spends with the Others (and the more lame backstories they give him), the less cool he gets. I haven't really missed him because I am so thoroughly bored by The Others. Yeesh. I hope at least when they get back to them, there'll be something *happening* this time.

The Claire ep wasn't bad. That's actually three in a row that I've enjoyed, mostly because it wasn't about those damn, useless Others. The Sayid one was especially good. S1 good even!
kools_pad
Mar. 18th, 2007 10:14 pm (UTC)
Haha. Yeah, well both Sawyer and Jack are getting uninteresting. Cause the writing sucks more and more. And the two actors are having a hell of a time trying to make the writing work.

And i can tell you are a rabid Sawyer fan just by those constantly uttered "Card game, Ana's gun, etc". That i actually buy. Because Sawyer has always been written as being arrogant and pompous of his own skill. But when driven enough, he can pull off things like stealing all the guns. Btw, i never bought that he hatches that entire plan within in one moody stare at Jack. That was a total stretch. And yeah, Sawyer is an evil mastermind. Hence, the Long Con. He has a conscious, and that keeps him more likeable, but hes only interesting to the male audience as a bad guy. Only the female audience enjoys the romance Sawyer. The one i despise. Because its so cliche and such a wasted use of a character like him.

Yeah, Jack and Sawyers bizarre friendship is much more interesting than anything Kate brings to the story.

Too bad the shows no good anymore. Imo.
frightened
Mar. 18th, 2007 07:15 pm (UTC)
With both characters, it's difficult to sort out what's development and relapses and whatnot and what's just inconsistent characterisation. It's annoying. I do hope the characterisation doesn't go the way Torchwood's did - just have any character doing any random thing because this week's plot demands it. That really sucked. You know when you're trying really hard to like a programme, despite its own writers and directors doing all they can to make sure you give up on it? Yeah. That.

I do like Kate, what I can figure out of her character. Well, she was wearing a Janis Joplin t-shirt in one of her flashbacks, and being a Joplin fan is the fastest way to make me like someone ;-) And 'Maternity Leave' had me shipping Kate/Claire like crazy, since Kate may well have spent that entire episode going "you bothering my femme?" Moving swiftly on... But I think I quite admire her determination to survive at all costs, even though it happens at the expense of other people's feelings. I liked Ana-Lucia, too... Women in popular culture are expected to be so much nicer than the men, and get punished with the men-are-strong/women-are-bitches dichotomy if they're not. I don't know if the Lost writers are incapable of writing non-maternal women without them being bitchy (Kate, Ana-Lucia, Juliet, Isabel) or if we're just socialised so we're incapable of seeing them in a good light. Hmmm.

Yeah, well, I have a feminist theory for every occasion.

(I had a ramble about Kate in my LJ a while back. Hardly anyone on my flist watches Lost though. I'd be interested to hear if you think I'm going totally out on a limb.)
halfdutch
Mar. 18th, 2007 07:29 pm (UTC)
You're right, maybe there's no point in trying to find any kind of throughline to either character since they are changed at the writers' whim, depending on what they need to accomplish in each individual episode. Especially with Kate - she's always been all over the map!

And I think they utterly fail when writing female characters. They either come across as complete bitches or completely boring. Or some mix that's incredibly annoying. One of the reasons that slash is so popular is because I think women *are* written so poorly on TV. Whenever they try to give us a "tough" woman, she inevitably comes off as too hard and too bitchy (Ana and Juliet being prime examples, in my opinon.) I've thought about trying to make a list of "tough" female characters who don't exist just as love interests and who aren't complete ballbusting bitches. As you said, is it the writing or are we so much tougher on female characters than on male ones? I like to think it's mostly the writing and the acting. :/

There are many "bitches" and villainesses I love, like Irina on Alias. But it's easier to create an intriguing villain than a compelling heroine, I think. It's a fine line that I think most shows utterly fail to get. For example, on Heroes, Niki manages to be a total badass and yet also completely boring. I'm not in that fandom too much, but I think she's the least popular character. Her and Simone, who exists (last I checked) only to be the center of a love triangle, without any of Lost Kate's independence.

And the whole mommy issue. I think that's the number one reason I still relate most to Kate. She's not a mother and she doesn't want to be, hallelujah! The second Sun's storyline was taken over by her pregnancy, I lost interest in her. It's not just that I can't relate, it's that that's just about all that they write for the character anymore. It's so limiting, I just want to scream. Danielle is probably the coolest, most mysterious character on the island and that's largely because they've allowed her to exist on the outskirts and haven't tried to explain her away or convince us to like her or feel sorry for her.

Anyway, always happy to discuss! I'll have to check out your Kate post!

frightened
Mar. 18th, 2007 08:07 pm (UTC)
One of the reasons that slash is so popular is because I think women *are* written so poorly on TV.

Hah, very true. I've always found it kind of weirdly amusing, since I'm gay, that I mostly read slash, occasionally read het, and generally run screaming from femmeslash (poor characterisation + horrible euphemisms for the vulva = EW GOD NO BRAIN-BLEACH PLEASE).
halfdutch
Mar. 18th, 2007 08:15 pm (UTC)
OMG, you are so right about the bad femmeslash! I once read a Kate/Shannon fic on fanfiction.net that had them "lining up their g-spots!" Sans double dildo! LOL. *GAH* I think a lot of people writing smut in fic have never actually had sex themselves. And, honestly, the lack of good terminology for girl parts is one of the main reasons I don't write more het smut. I tend to write around it ("he pushed into her," etc.) because, yeah, either the terms are too clinical or too flowery or too slutty sounding. *sighs*

And how come there's very few good lesbian flicks? The guys' movies may be kind of stilted but nowhere near as bad as the girl flicks. YOU try watching a girl movie on LOGO all the way through. I give up!
siluria
Mar. 18th, 2007 08:09 pm (UTC)
Your Sawyer meta made me sit back and turn into a nodding dog, but I do think you hit the nail on the head, and I just feel so sorry for him sometimes when he puts himself on the line for others and is just shot down. Your point about him making the ultimate sacrifice made me meep and shout no, but I totally agree with you about it, just not sure I could watch that in the show, or read it in fanfic either to be fair, I think it would break me.
halfdutch
Mar. 18th, 2007 08:17 pm (UTC)
*clings to Sawyer*

I suspect that's the way it's going to go. :-/ No happy ever after for Sawyer. It does kill me that the writers don't seem to realize we love the jerk and they keep having to beat him up to get us to feel sorry for him. Dudes, we're not all Kate! We don't need him to be at death's door to feel something for him!

I've killed Sawyer off a few times in fic and I don't know that I can ever do it again. The first time I did it, I went to bed with swollen, red eyes from weeping. *is a sap*
siluria
Mar. 18th, 2007 08:21 pm (UTC)
*is weeping just thinking about it* so we can be saps together...
alemyrddin
Mar. 19th, 2007 10:11 am (UTC)
You know, after reading this, my first thought was...
Oh Sawyer, how I love you!

*tries to write more coherent comments*
Somewhere along the line, he stopped being about every man for himself, and started putting his friends first, even when it turns out they don't put him first and don't even consider him a friend. Which is the most frustrating thing: no one else can see that Sawyer has changed.
So true...*hugs Sawyer*

Hurley seems to be the only one who can see through his jerky act to see that he's really just lonely. *hugs Sawyer and Hurley too*

...Claire trusts him with Aaron and Hurley stops by to hang out.
Possible (small) spoiler: didn't I see somewhere a promo pic with Sawyer cradling Aaron? I thought it was for 3x12 but since it wasn't, maybe in the next ep...

It does bother me that Sawyer is denied the chance to even choose whether he'll go on the mission to save Jack.
When Sawyer and Kate were in the canoe, I was sure he was just putting Jack's rescue off in order to get some help first (Locke, Sayid...). So I was really disappointed that the authors simply skipped the part in which Sawyer was asked to go.
Because, you know, Sawyer would probably have gone.

He cares for Jack, and his answer to Hurley is just one of the signals.
Jack is probably never going to really reciprocate or even understand it, since Sawyer is not in the rescue team. And probably because Jack is completely obtuse sometimes when it comes to feelings.

It's been suggested many times that Sawyer's ultimate fate is to sacrifice himself to save someone else, that that is his redemption arc.
Oh please no! *sniffles*
I don't know if I will keep watching Lost if they kill off Jack or Sawyer.

As for Kate...
I liked her at the very beginning, before the whole triangle thing, I like women's character that are not weak or just women to protect. But I don't like her any more, her opportunism has taken his toll, for me. She doesn't love anyone but herself, she is not reliable, she (almost) never keeps her word.
It's the triangle that started underlining the faults in her behaviour, but now, like you said, it's not just a love problem, it's her entire character that I don't like anymore.
Speaking of female characters, I liked Sidney Bristow in Alias: she was stubborn and tough, she decided for herself, often going against the advices by the others, but you couldn't doubt her loyalty (I am in the middle of 2nd season, so please don't spoil me, but I hope her character is not going to change so much!).
At first, I found a lot of similarities between Sidney and Kate, but they evolved in completely different ways.


uhzoomzip
Mar. 19th, 2007 04:00 pm (UTC)
In retrospect, his trying to put the marshall out of his misery involved not only mercy and compassion but I think a good deal of projection.

wow, really insightful observation here. never saw it, but certainly seems to fit!

no one else can see that Sawyer has changed.

i think that was the hardest part for sawyer, especially after saving michael only to be blamed for causing the whole thing. i think when he has let down his defenses, people have responded negatively, causing him to return to his "every man for himself" philosophy. to quote simon & garfunkel, "a rock feels no pain, and an island never cries." :-)

Despite Kate's canon denial, I do believe she was molested by her father, otherwise her actions are just too extreme.

i totally agree - there's too much pain and anger there.

I ask myself if she would die for either of them and you know, I can't answer that, whereas I am positive either of them would die for her, or each other.

interesting question. i wrote a fic where she sacrificed herself for jack & sawyer, but in canon? i'm not sure she would. i'd like to think so, though - it certainly makes me like the character more. :-)

nicely written food for thought!
luna481516
Mar. 20th, 2007 07:44 pm (UTC)
Fantastic analysis on both of them! Does Sawyer (still) have a death wish? I'm inclined to think so, from the way he just kneeled down in front of Pickett, as if he almost welcomed it. And the fact that Sawyer (and Kate) didn't leave the cage and try to escape. That's beyond a death wish; that's just bad writing to serve the plot development of the surgery/Pickett showdown and Jack's sacrifice. Since once Jack tells them to, they get up and run without any more hope of getting off the island than they had the night before.
You made a good point that being on the island has let Sawyer belong to people more than he ever has before, and someday he might not loathe himself so much that he embraces opportunities to die.

He doesn't expect Jack to do anything to save him. I like to think that, at that point, Jack and Sawyer were both convinced that The Others were likely going to kill them anyway and that refusing to cooperate was the only way to go out with dignity.
Yeah, I think Sawyer understood the situation better than Kate in that conversation, who naively took both Juliet's and Jack's words at face value at that point and believed there was a deal to be made for Sawyer's life. There was, as we saw, but not that deal.
I also agree that Sawyer would have joined in the mission to rescue Jack. But they put maneuvering the triangle above believable characterization here and worked things out so Kate and Sawyer are apart for awhile, which is what serves the triangle story at the moment as Kate refocuses on Jack. But they didn't have to make Sawyer such a laughingstock solely focused on his beer & porn & moping. Sheesh.
I'm hoping for, but not counting on, a meaningful interaction between Jack and Sawyer when Jack gets back to the beach. Some kind of recognition from both men that Jack's sacrifice was not just for Kate, but for both of them. It would be a nice follow up on the "you're the only friend I've got" conversation. (I always tend to add "on the island" but the fact that Sawyer didn't limit it is even more poignant.)
As for Kate, when she's not yo-yo-ing between both guys in the same episode, she always struck me as taking on the danger in order to atone, not just seeking suicide by cop (or by Other.) (Disclaimer: Jater here.) Sure she has turned manipulative when she wants something badly, but that was mainly in S1 and I think she's grown and has become more altruistic. (She still has a ways to go!) Her latest brushoff of Sawyer, I think, comes from insecurity or day-after regrets about intimacy (and maybe she did just do it b/c she thought he was gonna die) rather than him getting in the way of her selfish needs.
Anyway, I hope you don't mind me taking up so much real estate but it's nice to see this discussion without the usual shipper polarization and I hope I havent been too slanted myself. :)
( 25 comments — Leave a comment )

Profile

Josh Maggie hug by _jeudi
halfdutch
halfdutch

Latest Month

July 2016
S M T W T F S
     12
3456789
10111213141516
17181920212223
24252627282930
31      
Powered by LiveJournal.com
Designed by Tiffany Chow