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Jack meta/Asking for recs

*pops in briefly*

Writing a Sarah POV fic yesterday made me revisit the S3 finale and indulge in a bit of Jack meta, particularly when it comes to him and women. I probably won't get a chance to rewatch before the premiere as I'm going out tonight but here's some thoughts.


It seems to me that the whole "Jack has trouble letting go," theme that was in the island story line of "Do No Harm" was better illustrated by the backstory in "Man of Science...." Not that they plan the backstories to tally all that well. I mean, stalking Sarah was the most extreme pre-island example of Jack not being able to let go, although I suppose Christian was trying to tell Jack not to marry Sarah in the first place, and let her go in that sense. Jack was not a great husband: He was never home and he really didn't pay much attention to Sarah until she left him and then it was to stalk her, which is decidedly creepy.

Who has he picked to love? Sarah and Kate, both of whom aren't really capable of loving him back. Kate is spooked by commitment and ping-pongs between Jack and Sawyer. Sarah never said she loved Jack, not in any scripted dialogue at any rate. And when he turns to both women for help post-island, he's somehow burnt his bridges with both so badly that simply walk away from him.

Is Jack that unlovable? Is he purposely picking people who can't love him back? What did he do that was so terrible to both of them, or is he just that much of a mess? Are we going to find out some terrible thing he did, some terrible decision he made that drove Kate away? Like Sarah, is she just washing her hands of him because he's beyond help and she's with someone else now? (Which doesn't speak well of either woman, honestly.) Personally, I think he should have gone after Gabriela but maybe he felt he couldn't because he'd failed her by not saving her father.

Anyway, nothing new there, really, just some thoughts swirling around my head.

Also: I keep seeing people ask for Hurt!Jack/Caring!Sawyer fics and my list of recs is two years old! So if you want to rec a fic or link me to a fic of your own on that theme, please do! :) For my part, I've written the pirate 'verse and The Mix-Up. I can't think of any others at the moment.

ONE MORE DAY TO NEW LOST!

Comments

( 30 comments — Leave a comment )
isis2015
Jan. 30th, 2008 08:28 pm (UTC)
I think Jack picks women that are damaged. I don't think he goes into those relationships with the expressed purpose of trying to fix them, but there's a definite pattern there. Maybe it's just me, but I think it's easier to find fault with Kate and Sarah, then with Jack.

Yes, Jack wasn't a very good husband to Sarah. But he did acknowledge that at the end of 'The Hunting Party' and say that he wanted to do better and work on their relationship before Sarah dropped the big "I'm-cheating-on-you" bomb on his head.

As for Kate, I don't know what happened to drive a wedge between her and Jack, but, for one reason or another, I'm more inclined to blame it on Kate. Which isn't to say that I think Jack is innocent and blameless and can do no wrong. I don't think that. But for whatever reason, it's easier for me to believe that Jack spiraling down into suicide attempts and drug addiction would be way too much for Kate to handle and she pushed him away and ran like hell. Because that's Kate. And Kate hero-worships Jack. So, I think seeing him like that would be enough to make her shove him away.

I guess this is all to say that I really don't blame Jack for how things went with either Sarah or Kate. He isn't blameless in the situation, but I think their culpability is much greater than Jack's. Sarah has the balls to act like she was justified in cheating on Jack because he was never around and because he "awalys need someone to fix" and somehow spins it so he's the bad guy. And Kate jerks Jack and Sawyer around, never chooses between the two of them, sleeps with Sawyer, and expects Jack to still follow her around like a puppy instead of getting sick of it and moving on.

Yeah, I have Kate issues. I admit it. And I certainly have more with her than with Jack.
halfdutch
Jan. 31st, 2008 12:36 am (UTC)
Agreed, I think Jack means well. He has a good heart, at least and good intentions and sometimes he goes about achieving those in not the best way. He seems to suffer from a kind of tunnel vision, as well, where he gets so wrapped up in his task, saving, say, a patient, or finding Claire himself because he feels so guilty he didn't believe her when she felt she was in danger. It's like it's some kind of punishment for himself. It hurts to see him end up alone because he's always so hard on himself. In one way, you could say he gives all of himself, but only to one task at hand, not necessarily to one person, as with Sarah. I don't think they were well suited or ever even in love but that's on both of them for not recognizing that fact.

Kate's not the person to bet on when the chips are down, sadly. She was so determined to save him from captivity in canon and he was determined to come back for her ... I don't know. Maybe there's no point in trying to make the show make the kind of sense we want it to since characterization and plot can turn on a dime. (Like Jack's behavior for most of S3, which now seems nothing more than a diversion from the big flash forward, by making us wonder what the hell happened to him during his time alone with The Others... turns out, probably not much. :-/)

Okay, anyway, I can't hate Kate. I just blame the bad writing, LOL. ;)
angelwen99
Jan. 30th, 2008 08:43 pm (UTC)
I don't think it's a matter of Jack being unlovable, like you said, both Sarah and Kate felt real affection for him at one time, but Jack does have several personality traits and tendencies that can end up driving people away even has he attempts to bring them closer.

Jack is a protector, and while initially this is what "bags" Sarah and Kate, so to speak, the idea of constantly being sheltered, is, at least to me, incredibly annoying and anxiety-making. And knowing what I know of Sarah's character, she probably let these feeling stew and simmer until she really had no choice to lash out at Jack, blaming him for these overwhelming feelings. And by that point she had suffered for so long, she couldn't really forgive him. What's more, even if she had, there is no guarantee Jack would be able to curb his smothering impulses.

So I think it's not big things per-say, that push people away from Jack, but little things that are allowed to escalate, either because of Jack's hectic life (both on the island and off) or the other person's hesitance to verbally confront their once-savior.

*needs a lost icon*


halfdutch
Jan. 31st, 2008 12:31 am (UTC)
You do need a Lost icon. Have one of mine! :)

I agree, Jack's marriage didn't break up overnight. I really believe he and Sarah never really loved each other, it was just a sense of being destined to be together because of her surgery and obligation on his part and gratitude on hers. I suppose we could contrast him with Sarah's fiance, the one who abandoned her once he found she'd never walk again. Jack is the one who stays, the one who doesn't give up on others, but he tends to do so from an emotional distance. It makes me sad that there's no one there for him when he needs someone, but of course we don't know what's transpired for Future!Jack to be shunned by everyone he turns to.
bachlava
Jan. 30th, 2008 08:45 pm (UTC)
Is Jack that unlovable? Is he purposely picking people who can't love him back? What did he do that was so terrible to both of them, or is he just that much of a mess? Are we going to find out some terrible thing he did, some terrible decision he made that drove Kate away?

I am going to go out on a limb and guess that it is all his father's fault.

Seriously, though, that's a good question - albeit not one for which I have any confidence canon will provide a good answer. I think part of it is that Jack is a control freak. Most surgeons are, and that can be a good thing - they'd probably kill 95% of their patients otherwise. Jack's problem, I think, is that he needs to feel in control of the mutual terms of his emotional relationships, and his self-image has left him emotionally stunted in a way that makes it an even worse idea than it would be ordinarily. (It's why he's attracted to people who need him to "fix" them, IMO.) Indeed, that's why he wants that kind of emotional control in the first place. That's my reading of it, anyway. I hasten to add that I don't think Jack's at all conscious of it, or by nature particularly domineering - just that this is a problem he has, and that his way of dealing it causes it to escalate rather than be resolved.

I'm sure Sayid can make it all better. Sawyer, too.
halfdutch
Jan. 31st, 2008 12:28 am (UTC)
Oh, I know it's pointless to try to weigh canon and expect anything like a throughline there. They really don't give it that much thought, I'm sure, given their wild U-turns of character and inconsistency of plotting. I wonder how the actors deal with it!

Jack's main M.O. is to prove himself by saving others and of course, not everyone wants to be saved. I don't think he realizes he's doing it, as you say, he's just trying to do his best. He could really use some therapy and someone he can love (and who can love him) and get past all those thorny issues of inadequacy. Which is why I always feel he and Sawyer are so right for each other, because they're both so flawed and could maybe put up with each other where no one else would. But hey, we're slashers so we like to think that way, by inserting our pairing of choice!
eponine119
Jan. 30th, 2008 08:48 pm (UTC)
This is very astute. I think that Jack believes he's unloveable, so yeah, he may be picking women who can't love him back. Those women he's chosen are ones who at the beginning, relied on him intensely -- Kate on the island, and Sarah after her surgery. Neither of them love him, they need him to survive. In a way he started out as a hero to them, and maybe that was his draw, because they helped his self-esteem, which is pretty low, esp. in season 1. Then when they don't need him to survive anymore, they dump him. That's pretty sad, actually.

As for stalking Sarah, I think it was the writers' lame attempt to continue to illustrate Jack's inability to let go. But Jack does also have a controlling side, and we've seen it, and it illustrated that much more.
halfdutch
Jan. 31st, 2008 12:15 am (UTC)
This is very astute.

Hee, thanks! I wasn't sure if it was anything that hadn't been talked up one side and down the other already but it just kind of struck me afresh, that Jack has a knack for picking people who aren't going to be there for him when the chips are down. It's interesting because I've always thought of Jack as being the one to put people up on a pedestal and this suggests that other people are more apt do that to him.

And yeah, I wasn't down with the stalking at all. I hated that ep. I guess with so much time having past I'm finally accepting it as canon and trying to make it work with Jack's character instead of just ignoring it, LOL.
fosfomifira
Jan. 30th, 2008 09:33 pm (UTC)
I'm pretty sure that Jack thinks he's unlovable, which is why he chooses to go for women who don't love him, who only feel affectionate toward him. I think Jack tends to jump in and clings to the first person who shows some signs of postivie emotions toward him and he falls for them without really knowing them first, without giving himself or said women the time to figure out what they feel. I'm not sure if he misreads the signs and mistakes an interest, affection, caring, need for love, especially the long-lasting kind of love he seems to be after.

I wouldn't blame Sarah and Kate. I think that, in a way, Jack can't help himself and transforms whatever connection they might share to something bigger, deeper, more meaningful emotionally speaking. I wouldn't blame him, either. I think he's just so starved for affection (and with those parents, who could blame him) that he'll cling to anything that might resemble love. Having said that, neither Kate nor Sarah found a graceful, adult way to tell Jack that maybe they just weren't on the same page. I'm not sure what might have caused Kate and Sarah's post island attitudes toward Jack, but I'm going to guess that he started making emotional demands neither woman was ever able of meeting, least of all now (or, er, in the future) where Jack isn't himself and can't give them whatever they might have wanted from him back when they felt something for him. In a way, they weren't his exes, but more like tired stepmothers telling a troubled child that he's burnt his bridges and no longer welcome at home.

[Wow, rambling!]
halfdutch
Jan. 31st, 2008 12:24 am (UTC)
*nods* Jack doesn't seem to really know what love is, just duty and helping others. I think Jack suffers from the need to be needed, and that's why he picks women who seem broken. Of course that does have a backlash when they no longer need you and long to break free. I have an easier time seeing that pattern with Sarah. With Kate, I guess she is just in constant fleeing mode so it's hard to say who's at fault there! The best they can hope for is a few moments here and there -- how convenient for TV plotting that wont' let them actually get together!

Anyway, I wonder if Jack even knows what he wants or needs for himself. He always seems to put himself last. No wonder he's so cranky, so often! In the future, yes, he does seem to be beyond saving, unless TPTB want us to conclude that Kate is just a heartless bitch who can't be bothered with him ... we shall see!
alliecat8
Jan. 30th, 2008 09:34 pm (UTC)
First, I'm all a-squee to find Lost meta on my flist! OH, I've missed all the thinky Lost stuff so much!

Funny you should bring this up today, because just yesterday I was reading some psych stuff and I reviewed the symptoms of Borderline Personality Disorder. My first thought was, "They're talking about Kate!" I won't go into a whole essay about it, but one of the main symptoms is "splitting," or seeing people only in black-and-white. (Is this starting to sound Lost-like yet?!) People with the disorder see people as all-good or all-bad, and if someone they believe is good lets them down (as it's only human to do), they suddenly become a reject in the eyes of the person who once idolized them.

I've always thought that Kate sees people as black-or-white, and although I don't know enough about Sarah to "diagnose" her, I suspect that that's how she saw Jack, too. And when Jack falls off his pedestal, he really falls. No little wobbles for Jack, he stalks women and he beats up Daddy and he turns to drugs...and yet he's sympathetic, because we know that he's doing it because he knows he can't live up to the standards he *wants* people to expect of him, and he's crushed when he can't. I have a feeling that it wouldn't matter WHO Jack picked to love, he'll always disappoint them (think about his dad and mom, as well as the women in his life) and he falls apart when he does. That scares people away.

I think that Jack, in his own way, is on a journey for redemption that is every bit as dark and difficult as Sawyer's and, like Sawyer, his worst enemy is himself. And you know I say that with all the love (and hope) in the world for both of them.
halfdutch
Jan. 31st, 2008 12:17 am (UTC)
Interesting! As I was just saying to Megan above, it always seemed to me that Jack was putting, say, Kate on a pedestal, and then judging her harshly when she fell but it does seem that she's done that to him as well. Then again, trying to read some rhyme or reason to Kate is even harder than trying to accept that Jack would be the type to end up stalking someone. It's hard to find that throughline in characters sometimes but we try!

And Jack definitely needs saving, poor guy. He needs someone in his corner, for starters. *shoves Sawyer at him*
zelda_zee
Jan. 30th, 2008 10:30 pm (UTC)
Oh, Jack. I don't really have anything to add to the above, since I agree with most of what's been said. If I try to imagine myself in Kate or Sarah's place and how I would react - well, maybe that's not fair, since Jack is far too controlling for me in the first place - but I can understand why they'd decide at some point that they had nothing left to give him, especially in the future, with Jack all strung out. There comes a point where you just realize there's nothing you can do and you have to walk away, and I say this from experience.

I'm curious how Juliet fits in though. Will it just be another repeat of the pattern or will she somehow be different? She doesn't strike me as a woman who is capable of loving Jack, but I'm biased so I may not have a good read on her character.

As to recs, I think Just When You Think It's Too Late http://zelda-zee.livejournal.com/165210.html#cutid1 qualifies, though it's mostly a Marc fic, so maybe not. And there's an old one I wrote called Afterlife, though it might already be on your list: http://zelda-zee.livejournal.com/34105.html#cutid1.

Edited at 2008-01-30 10:32 pm (UTC)
halfdutch
Jan. 31st, 2008 12:11 am (UTC)
It's funny how you can love a character and sympathize with him, but in real life, you know you'd be running far, far away! Who would be even dateable on the island? Everyone is so messed up! Juliet definitely doesn't fit Jack's pattern so far as she doesn't seem to need fixing or being taken care of (neither, I suppose, did Ana, although she had her own issues, none of which I really bought into!)

And aha, thanks for those. Of course, Just When You Think is perfect. *smacks forehead* And I don't think I've read the other one! And my rec list pre-dates that fic by a tad anyway. I'll have to go catch up with it! :)
(no subject) - zelda_zee - Jan. 31st, 2008 02:32 am (UTC) - Expand
elise_509
Jan. 31st, 2008 01:45 am (UTC)
*sits down and settles in for a long comment*

The main problem I have with Sarah's treatment of Jack is this: After working out their timeline, they couldn't have been married for long at all. A year, quite possibly two, if you make some concessions to the fact that the continuity people are morons. Four of those months were spent working on Gabriella's father's case. I realize that having your husband opt for work over you sucks, but instead of talking to Jack about it, she went out and had an affair. I truly believe that if she had told Jack how she was feeling, it would've made Jack first, try to fix it, and then maybe face facts sooner, on his own terms, rather than the messy and awful way things did happen where he realized too late things were wrong and Sarah wouldn't even give him a chance. She really bailed on that marriage like *that*. For better or worse, my ass. I think she realized she never loved him either but put the blame on him because she's self-centered like that, couldn't admit that they'd both made a mistake.

The stalking thing was creepy. I really thought Jack had hit rock bottom and was spinning out of control, but that was before I saw TTLG! How much further he could fall. But I do think that the stalking came from this really desperate place of needing to understand, because even though he had messed up as a husband, Sarah really just got up and left and shoved him out of her life. I think he was incredibly jealous and distraught and hadn't quite realized that he didn't love her. At that point, I really think he was still under the delusion that he loved her and felt if she would only give him a chance, he could fix things. Note, even after she has left him for another man, after she cheated on him, he's still the one apologizing to her and taking every last bit of the blame, groveling to her while she takes phone calls from her lover in front of him and then walks away smirking.

Jack purposely picks people who can't love him because of his father issues, imo. His self-esteem is incredibly low and the main pressure in his life was always to please his father, who could simply never be pleased with him. Everything has been about his dad. He can't love himself, much let someone else love him. He picked Sarah because she saw him as this wonderful, amazing, guy, and he fell in love with the idea of being loved, of being that guy that Sarah loved. Problem was, she only loved the idea of him as well, not the real him, and he couldn't live up to her expectations. And him pouring himself into his job was partly out of fear, that he thought he couldn't be her perfect guy forever so he just avoided her, on top of the fact that he didn't really love her either. I think being rejected by Sarah damaged him irrevocably, because, like Sarah tells him in ATOTC, "It doesn't matter who he is, Jack. It just matters who you're not." For someone who hates himself already, that has to just crush whatever last bit of self esteem he had.

Again, I think the same thing happened with Kate. When their relationship started, he was the good guy in her eyes, and she was this beautiful mysterious girl who looked at him like he was wonderful. She jerks him around and plays with his heart, but Jack doesn't think he deserves any better. He fully expects to disappoint people and for people to leave him. He doesn't have the self-esteem to stand up for himself. I mean...Kate of S3 hardly deserved for Jack to make her feel better about Sawyer pushing her away, for him to say he loved her in that moment, which basically said "I love you and I just want you to be happy, even if it's with Sawyer." I don't think Jack ever expected to get Kate once Sawyer was in the picture. Notice how he always backs the f*ck off when Kate and Sawyer are in one of their close phases, not to mention the fact that he saw Kate and Sawyer post-coital canoodling and then risked his life to get the both of them to safety.

And, I wrote too much. Gotta go to a second comment.


elise_509
Jan. 31st, 2008 01:46 am (UTC)
I have my own suspicions about the future!Jack...I think Kate and Jack both made some really questionable decision, except Kate can live with it and Jack can't. So whenever Jack calls Kate, all he's doing is dragging up something she doesn't want to think about anymore. Jack is basically like Kate's guilty conscience. And I think Sarah's just a whore. From the FF, I got the feeling they hadn't seen each other in a long time, but perhaps she'd heard through the grapevine of his drinking problems. I just don't see a Jack obsessed with getting back to the island going around bothering Sarah. He tends to be single-minded in purpose once he gets focused on something. I think any stuff he had lingering with Sarah would be forgotten as he concentrated on getting back.

Would he just go after Gabriela already? I still think they were the couple meant to be, that Sarah's surgery was meant to bring Gabriela to him and she was the one he was supposed to marry. I've said it before, but Gabriela is still the only woman who thanked Jack for trying, that even though he failed, trying was enough for her.

Um...think that about covers it. I probably have more to say, but I'm sure I've scared you completely by now.

(no subject) - halfdutch - Jan. 31st, 2008 02:26 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - elise_509 - Jan. 31st, 2008 03:43 am (UTC) - Expand
(no subject) - elise_509 - Jan. 31st, 2008 03:44 am (UTC) - Expand
luna481516
Jan. 31st, 2008 03:38 am (UTC)
I haven't got a gram of sympathy for Sarah so hats off to you for even trying to get inside her head. She is a person to whom image seems to be all-important, chanting "I have to dance at my wedding" while in shock. So when Fiance #1 disappeared there was Jack on the white horse and she traded up - a surgeon, after all. Jack got swept up in it as something that he should do, and those doubts he voiced to Christian the night before the wedding were something he should have listened to. I think he liked Sarah at least; they had a nice little flirty dynamic in the early FB's. I'd like to see maybe a deleted scene's worth of their marriage in between the wedding and the split. I guess he wasn't a great husband, but he wasn't a rotten husband either. She knew doctors work long hours - he worked long hours on her. It wasn't so fun when it was someone else though. And they were still having sex sometimes, since she told him about her pregnancy test. (While she was also screwing another guy...)
The "Is she happy?" at the end of ATOTC surprised me at how much he seemed to care about her, instead of his failure.
Is Jack that unlovable? Is he purposely picking people who can't love him back? He thinks he's unlovable, and that informs half of how he relates to women. You'd think he'd get a clue that he's not unlovable when time after time, women walk up to him and snog him...
I don't think he actually picks the women he gets involved with. Sarah seemed to have engineered the whole relationship. With Kate, she had him at "I'm Kate." Even the Marshal knew it. And she was kickass and confident and mysterious and his best friend in the first days on the island. He demanded accountability from her, but IMO that makes for a better relationship despite some uncomfortable moments. Otherwise there's no respect for each other.
Anyway, in S3 Kate's "impulses" put him through emotional hell, and he managed to grow and let go in a way he couldn't before.
I can't really say what's happening in the flashforward, but I suspect their distance has a lot more to do with the lies he alluded to and whatever bad thing happened during the rescue than with their relationship itself. And at a certain point you just have to shut the door on a junkie, and let's face it, turning away is easier for Kate than holding on.
Sorry I've rambled...
Fic recs: How about the pair Reverse the Curse
and Physical Therapy by the young lady who commented above me? And I liked your own Follow Me Into the Dark if Broken!Jack counts.
halfdutch
Feb. 6th, 2008 05:39 am (UTC)
I had a really hard time with ATotC, with Jack becoming a stalker and with his being so hung up, still, on Sarah, who really was a terrible wife. I think he blamed himself so much for the marriage's failure and refused to ever blame her, however unhealthy that is for him. God, it would be nice if the writers would let Jack move on from her!

It's funny but Jack seems to always be getting hit on and totally surprised about it (like not realizing when Kate asked "Are you checking me out?") and I guess that's how I often write him, as sweet but clueless about his own charms. He seems so wrapped up in his head that he just doesn't ever see it coming! That's probably why I so often write him as the pursued instead of the pursuer (although it's fun to turn it around sometimes).

As far as the post-island trauma, I think Jack feels responsible for it and wants to fix it and Kate has always been more about taking care of herself.

Thanks for the fic recs! I love Elise's writing. :) And I totally forgot about Broken!Jack in Follow Me Into the Dark! Ahh, poor Jack. He really does need someone to take care of him, someone who won't leave him. :-/
hopelessfangirl
Jan. 31st, 2008 04:15 am (UTC)
Mmmmm, Hurt!Jack/Caring!Sawyer... ♥ I'm gonna check out your rec list even if it is slightly outdated. There's no such thing as stale Jawyer.
halfdutch
Feb. 6th, 2008 05:33 am (UTC)
Thanks! It's a scenario I can't get enough of myself. :) And now I've got a growing list of newer fics to rec along those lines.
janie_tangerine
Jan. 31st, 2008 02:02 pm (UTC)
I can only pretty much agree with what has been said in comments before, alas that he has quite some low self-esteem/control issues and that he tends to choose women who seem to have the highest possible opinion of him. Then in the end, where his flaws (human, because he's a common mortal) come out and he disappoints said persons someway, given that he's had an upbringing where disappointment wasn't contemplated, he sees whatever happens as his fault. This also doesn't apply only to his choice of women but also I think in general relationships, for example with his father (if I'm not wrong, in 'Outlaws' Christian told Sawyer that Jack was blaming himself for what happened to him thinking that he betrayed him and that he disappointed him or something along those lines; then if Christian had his issues preventing him from proving Jack wrong and saving both of them a lot of problems is a whole other matter). About the FF, it's been my theory since I saw the finale that when they were rescued something terrible happened which still has consequences and that they agreed to keep it a secret (and I guess along with the existence of the island..); and this something can/could be fixed only by going back. Since Jack probably blames himself for whatever it is he wants to find the island and whatever it is, it's driving him crazy, while Kate doesn't seemingly think so. About their relationship, though, I think that with the exclusion of the FF, Jack still is Kate's first object of affection (I can't really explain 'Catch 22' to me otherwise..) even if he thinks she's definitely made her choice and that it's not him.

Personally, I think he should have gone after Gabriela but maybe he felt he couldn't because he'd failed her by not saving her father.

That and the fact that he was still married. Gabriela was a much better choice than any he's made up to now, I think. Alas, these are my two cents. Uhm, sorry for the rambling ;)
halfdutch
Feb. 6th, 2008 05:33 am (UTC)
Thanks for your thoughts, hon! The premiere got me sidetracked with replying to this.

And now we have a bit more of an idea of just what Jack feels guilty about, post-island. The poor guy -- I'm so drawn to him because he's so hard on himself and no one ever seems to have his back for very long. Which is why it's so damn frustrating when Sawyer declares Jack "his best friend" and then that's just dropped. *sigh* I totally thought he'd be on Jack's side against Locke and that hasn't really ever happened. I guess the writers know no one would be left on Locke's side, then!

Gabriela was hot and beautiful and I think she was more understanding of Jack and his failures than others might be. But I doubt we'll see her again. I wonder if the writers knew what a fan hit she was!
alemyrddin
Feb. 1st, 2008 01:44 pm (UTC)
I'm quite late about this so I won't speak about Jack (except to say that, of course, I don't think he's unlovable, I think he doesn't know himself nor his women very well, and he keeps choosing, or letting himself be chosen, badly)

about the hurt!Jack/caring!Sawyer fics, though... I remember a fic where Jack was puking in the bathroom of the hatch and Sawyer helped him by keeping him company... Wasn't it yours?

also.. it's unfinished, but there's a long fic by obreesprit, End it. It's a post S3 finale where Sawyer and Kate take care of Jack together.
:)
halfdutch
Feb. 6th, 2008 05:29 am (UTC)
Talk about late ... it's taken me forever to come back to this post. Sorry!

And hmmm. Jack puking in the hatch? I don't think that's one of mine! *ponders*

And thanks for the fic link! ;)
nycene
Feb. 12th, 2008 04:45 am (UTC)
found your journal looking for lost slash and have been enjoying your fic.

i really like the character jack and while he is not unlovable i think he would be a hard person to stay in love with, to maintain a relationship with. he is very giving, but incredibly needy at the same time. he needs external validation, he needs to be needed, he needs to fix things. he shone on the island because there was a constant stream of people and situations that needed fixing. ben was right on the money when he asked jack why he wanted to leave the island. jack was alone and miserable in his 'previous life'. on the island he was needed, respected and cared about.

it makes sense that he would be drawn to people who need fixing (sarah, kate, juliette). sarah's damage was physical. kate's damage is clearly emotional and like jack, she tries to fix things. unlike jack, she had not gotten alot of validation for her efforts (her mother called the cops, jack didn't want her to come back for him).

we don't know alot about juliette, but we do know that her relationship with her ex-husband was so toxic that she cried about it at a job interview and wished him dead. we know that she has been held hostage and manipulated by ben for 3+ years and that she asked jack to kill him too. we also know that juliette is a fixer too (sneaking, stealing and using experimental drugs to try to make her sterile sister conceive) for me, julliete's mental state was captured in the flashback when she is listening to 'downtown' getting ready for her book club meeting - she is trying very hard to hold it together, but a platter of burned muffins was all it took to break the illusion.

watching jacks's flash forward hurt. when jack falls, he really hits rock bottom (the beard, booze and oxycontin....broke my heart). i am not going to speculate on why they 'have to go back' but when he loses it at the hospital and says 'you don't know what i've been through', it was enough of an explanation for me. when you think of everything he has gone through, the people he failed to save, his time with the Others, the broken look on his face when he thought that sayid, jin and bernard had been shot (he blamed ben, but he blamed himself too), for someone who needs to make things right too much went wrong. poor jack.

that was rambly. what i want is fic where sawyer (or sayid) pick up the broken jack pieces and put him back together. sawyer and sayid are both damaged, but i think both are self aware. they know they are flawed and why they are flawed. i am not sure jack gets it.

halfdutch
Feb. 13th, 2008 03:32 am (UTC)
Well, hi there! :)

Jack definitely has his issues. They might not be as dramatic as Kate or Sawyer's, but they're just as crippling and you're right, he has that tunnel vision that makes him incredibly intense and focused but means he misses so much, including being aware of himself.

We're still learning about Juliet and I find I'm now interested, whereas before I was not. I think it's very hard to throw a new character at us and expect us to sympathize and I don't think they succeeded with her at first but now I find I am. Writing her in fic has helped, as has her finally choosing a side and sticking with it! :)

Anyway, yes, I love long, rambly discussions about Lost! Especially ones as eloquent as this.

As for post-finale fic recs where Sawyer helps Jack, I wrote one that you may have read called Follow You Into the Dark.

toestastegood wrote one that's mostly Sawyer/Sayid but involves them both coming to Jack's aid. It's here: Kentro.

And you must read zelda_zee's Just When You Think It's Too Late where Marc and Sawyer help piece Jack back together. So good!
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